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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 7, 2007 3:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: studio better than live?

does anyone have a tune they feel is better on the studio recording rather than a live performance? The only one that does it for me was the somewhat obsure Built to last off the last album. When i heard it i thought it could have been a nice opener but when it was played live it lost a lot of power.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Nov 8, 2007 5:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I agree with the others about "Box of Rain"- some concert versions are nice but on the whole it just lost too much in the translation to the stage. I'm not a big fan of Phil's singing anyway, but his vocals on the studio version are about as good as it gets for him. Also, as mentioned above, there's something about the way the guitars ring out at the begining of that album...

There are others like "Mountains of the Moon" that never improved on the studio version but they were played so infrquently I don't coutn them.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Nov 8, 2007 7:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Great question.

For me, hands down: CRAZY FINGERS.

The Blues for Allah version blows away any live one i've ever heard. The studio has a sharp,clear,reggae-infused quality they never achieved live, plus Garcia's vocals are miles superior to any live version (and he doesn't blow the lyrics.) The best live version i've heard is from 'One From the Vault', that 1975 concert, but i still wouldn't put it ahead of Blues for Allah).

I love Crazy Fingers, but, like another of my favorite Dead tunes--Row Jimmy--I find there are very few good live versions, and when it comes to Fingers, the studio version reigns supreme.

That said, if anyone feels like pointing me to a good live version of "Fingers"--other than One From the Vault--i'm all ears.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

When I saw this thread Blues for Allah popped right into my head . . .I don't have any specific comparisons but the music on this album is just flawless. As for a beautiful Row Jimmy the 4-3-85 Providence does it for me.

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Poster: staggerleib Date: Nov 8, 2007 7:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Grendel-
Wow, you simply articulated exactly my thoughts on this issue. For me the One from the Vault release, which I listen to often, is some of the most intensely intimate, as well as artistic playing that the band ever accomplished.

The story of that release is wonderful as well. The crickets under the stage. The fact that the tunes could not have been any more rehearsed and polished as they practically left the studio after finishing up recording the album, and went to the theatre to perform. Sage and Spirit? King Solomon's Marbles?

Amazing performance, wonderful recording. Almost a live studio album.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 8, 2007 11:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Absolutely! This a point I always consider critical to the success of so many shows of 1970: they were spending so much time working on vocals with the two vocal dominated albums that year that it translated to many, not all, but many of the shows that year. They would do various things with the harmonies, eg, on CumbBlues, that I think they only tried because they were so comfortable with it...

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 8, 2007 9:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I agree grendel. In fact I was going to make a post one day asking how they managed to completely F up and bungle the beginning. The begining is so light and airy and intricate and live they just hurry up and flub right through it.

There are some that I enjoy once they get past the botched beginning but for the most part I stick to the 75 or 76 versions. Check out some 76 versions if you want to hear some that aren't messed up.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 8, 2007 8:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Grendel,

try frost amp oct 1982. It's 82 so Jer's vocals will not come close to the studio version. the reason I love this one is that there is a significant jam after and it's not a playin jam. It actually has an I know you rider feel at one point. Then it transitions nicely into lost sailor. This is my personal fav.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Nov 8, 2007 8:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Thanks, lobster--i'm not familiar w/that version, and will def. check it out. I actually find Garcia's voice to be in fine form on some '82 shows, particularly 10/10/82 and one of my Top 10 shows of all time 4/19/82

Thanks again!

GC

*-well, what do you know--THAT's the show! 10/10....I guess i need to re-listen to that Crazy Fingers; I don't recall it being a stand-out--I usually focus on the first set of this show, esp. the TN Jed.

This post was modified by grendelschoice on 2007-11-08 16:24:29

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Poster: Seven-Eleven Date: Nov 8, 2007 8:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I like Ratdog's studio version of Corinna better than live versions by the dead.

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Poster: L.A. Women Date: Nov 7, 2007 4:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

jerry had a hard time with built to last live. though i think this one 10/9/89 is outstanding, jerry executes it to near perfection.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd89-10-09.sbd.serafin.7721.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: mcgannahan Date: Nov 7, 2007 4:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

if your first exposure to the dead was built to last, the album, and you still managed to become a deadhead, then that would really be a miracle. if your first exposure was live dead, and you didn't become a deadhead, i'd say you were born without a soul, and that sucks. sure, it's fun to play the first album, and anthem, and aoxo , etc. but that's for old times sake. a novelty. as patrick henry was inclined to say, give me live grateful dead, or give me death!

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Poster: BryanE Date: Nov 8, 2007 10:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Judging by the length of the thread, it's a question that's gotten the gang thinking. And while I'm not here to pee in anyone's Cheerios, it's an apples and oranges thing as I see it.

Take Candyman for example. The version on American Beauty is, as the title of the album suggests, truly just that, an American beauty: rootsy and raw, sweetly sparse, although not quite the bare bones sound that was found on Workingman's Dead, but it is a great sample of Hunter's old reliable gambler motif as Garcia tells the tale with a freshness and charm that proves how much love and respect he had for the music of the rural U.S.A. As far as I'm concerned, it is flawless.

But there are moments in Jerry's leads when the song was performed that can make the hair on the back of your neck stand on end. And I would really hate to have to choose between any great live recording and the studio version when it comes to, "Hand me my old guitar, pass the whiskey 'round. Won't you tell everybody you meet that the Candyman's in town!"

Of course, on a hot night, Playin In The Band can't be beat, and the same could be said of Lazy Lightning>Supplication. But if I'm in the mood, I'll stand the Ace version of Playin and the Kingfish recording of LL>S up against live performances of them any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Okay, so it was Kingfish and not The Grateful Dead, but the spirit of the recording is the same as what the Dead produced.

I do agree, though, with a lot of what's been expressed. I love seeing Phil sing it, but I feel that Box of Rain has never been as clean on stage as it was in the studio. And I don't know if Unbroken Chain EVER worked as well as they would have wanted it to. If it was a show when Jerry really nailed Crazy Fingers, though, the coda at the end finds spaces that I don't know if they could ever reach in the confines of the studio environment. China Doll is similar in that regard, but the Mars Hotel recording sparkles, just like everything else on that album. Put Ship of Fools on the old Victrola, and you'll hear nary a complaint from me.

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Poster: tree-ap Date: Nov 8, 2007 5:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Jumping in a little late on this, but, here it goes...Terrapin Station. There, I said it. BLASPHEMY!!! I do not pick shows to listen to just because TS is in the set list, & I can say I've listened to the the studio version WAY MORE than even all the different shows it's been played at that I've heard. It's certainly NOT to say that there aren't live performances that I don't find spectacular---Boston Garden 5/8/77, and a show I saw at the Cap Centre Spring tour '91 (the 2nd night of the 4 I think, which I think is probably the 2nd greatest show I attended). But, there's just something "more" that the album version has that I enjoy---it's length, it's diversity (Terrapin Flyer!), and maybe some other aspects I just can't give names to. I recall something I read at the dead.net archives before the last site overhall, where they said that heads didn't take to the album very well (strings w/the GD?), and Jerry, said, "fuck'em if they can't take a joke!" Of course, it also said that the original tapes had been "misplaced" or "accidentally erased" by the producer, w/Jerry & Mickey's timbali (I'm going on flawed memory on that word) part now missing---this was replaced with the strings & choral arrangement.

Though, maybe next year I'll seek out more live versions, as I've changed so many of my song preferences over the years---DS, GDTRFB, TOO, Cumberland Blues, HCS, PITB, and on, and on, and on... Great question though.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 8, 2007 12:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

beside the obvious ones, I also think Terrapin was best on record, except for the last half which was rarely done anyway.

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Poster: choad Date: Nov 7, 2007 4:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I think the studio version of Dark Star was pretty much their high water mark. When they did it live it was just meandering. Especially those 35-40 minute ones, they just never went anywhere.

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Poster: mcgannahan Date: Nov 7, 2007 4:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

oh, i totally agree choad. how can you compare the 2 minute condensed studio version to the bohemoth 69-74 live ones. in the time it takes to sit through those mindless jams, you could hear the studio cut like 20 times!

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Nov 7, 2007 8:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I have to say, imo the 2 minute DS mops the floor with most live versions.
(I kid!)
Referring of course, to the 18th take (unreleased), not what's on the archive or single.

I love the Live Dead version (gorgeous 16 track seperation), but I couldn't sit through it or any of the other long versions (I've heard) again unless I was a captive audience.
Like on a 2+ hour long bus ride.
Or while under the influence.

Other studio preferences (though I dig live too):

Golden Road
Cream Puff War (the uncut, extended, remastered version)

(on the other hand, Viola Lee was far better live than on the 1st lp. Cold Rain And Snow is one of the better 1st lp tracks, but was better live, for a while.
I agree that BIODTL was better on the lp).

And So We Leave The Castle

Rosemary
Mountains Of The Moon (that mix and the harpsichord gets me)
Doin That Rag (the original mix of Aoxomoxoa)

Cumberland Blues
Dire Wolf (well...)

Til The Morning Comes
Attics Of My Live (but tell me your favorite live version - with vocals as in key as the lp version)

Unbroken Chain (I like the studio effects)



This post was modified by cream-puff-war on 2007-11-08 04:39:03

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Poster: L.A. Women Date: Nov 7, 2007 8:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Mountains Of The Moon
Box Of Rain...thats it...period.

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Poster: BryanE Date: Nov 8, 2007 8:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

My own opinion about Dark Star notwithstanding, mcgannahan's post is the funniest I've read in months!

This post was modified by BryanE on 2007-11-08 16:37:18

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Nov 8, 2007 6:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I have a friend who refers to Live Dead as "that album without band seperations".

He really likes Mars Hotel, the first Garcia lps, and he definitely prefers the Dark Star on his copy of Long Strange Trip (the GD anthol.).

So there really are some sincere music fans who enjoy the GD studio stuff way more than the enlongated exploratory live versions.

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Poster: L.A. Women Date: Nov 7, 2007 4:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

ha ha

dig this
http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-01-02.early-late.sbd.cotsman.18120.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: choad Date: Nov 7, 2007 7:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Hey you jedi mind trick fucker. I listened to that for 5 minutes before I fell asleep. I think you had me listen to that to lull me into a fall sense of security. You knew I would fall asleep out of boredom. Bastard.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2007 3:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Oh my gosh...real difference of opinion here. I can list most songs, at some level. For example, Golden Road and BIODTL, and then almost everyone from Workingman's and Am Beauty...but, this is only in the realm of "music quality" (ie, esp vocals!)...that doesn't mean I don't have live versions I prefer for various reasons, but if I was asked to supply a version of a song, for non Dead Heads, say at some public function, I would pick the studio version during the early days at least for almost everyone...

Sorry! Snobbery of the worst kind...

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 7, 2007 4:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

no, that's great feedback. The general perception is that the band "didn't click" or "wasn't captured" in the studio. Most band members are on record saying this as well. Thought I'd throw it out there to see what people thought

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2007 5:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Whewwww...yeah, my point would be for "standard" songs, like Box that Arb notes below, not things like Lovelight, etc...of course, my fav jams, like 11, and even DS, comments joking about the studio version below notwithstanding, just don't exist in studio form.

Suppose for the non early era types, though, this will be a significant question; eg, is Eyes better in live versions...might be...

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 7, 2007 5:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

just curious...is brown eyed woman a studio track or is the first appearance on Europe 72, I can't recall offhand?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2007 6:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

No studio versions of that one I am aware of.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 7, 2007 6:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

No studio B.E Woman. Europe 72 was the first released version

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Poster: Toadsmoker Date: Nov 8, 2007 1:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I always thought "PICASSO MOON" sounded better buried deep in the studio vault than it did live.

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Poster: craven714 Date: Nov 8, 2007 2:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

wow. I didnt think the Box would go that far
(thats what she said)
I have to admit Ive going through quite a few Boxes
today (you can take that however you want) and I have to
grasp ARBs edit of "Dont confuse the auds reaction to the
music"
I think that might have been what I was doing.
From (sorry no hyper-link) 12-11-72 to some mid-80s
to even 1-25-93, there isnt one that measures up to the studio.(Box)

Which brings us to the other points being made.
Skuzzle--several valid points
And(of course) WillTell hits the nail of the head:
"Almost everyone off Working and AB" and "vocal albums"

These albums are untoucable in comparision to a live version of a song off of them, really if you think about it

Which brings me to another point. It got me thinking of
SUGMAG. There is a song that went from being a fun, yet
fairly delicate tune to a rock and roll monster on stage.
It had to become different on stage. Does that make it "better or worse" becomes an unanswerable quetion.
I think any one of the songs off Working and AB had to make that transition too. But paradoxally, Im sure there are
hundreds of better versions(or chosen favs) of SUGMAG,
right?

So I apprecitate all the takes on this, and I think I
finally got my head right.
Leave it to lobster for another mind-fuck thread
I'll keep diggin deeper to lobtsers original quest of the
Built to Last and give that Hampton 89 a spin (AGAIN!)
peace

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I'd say that the whole of the 'Blues for Allah' record is better than live versions, except for "The Music Never Stopped."

If there are better performances please post!

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Poster: Toadsmoker Date: Nov 8, 2007 7:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

BFA was fun live, check out shows from 75, kezar etc....

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Nov 7, 2007 4:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

box of rain

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Poster: JamminJerome Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I agree 100% with Box of Rain. That studio version is beautiful. I can listen to it again and again. I actually made a post about this a few months ago, holding Box of Rain up as pretty much the only studio song that cannot be beat live. Although to a lesser extent, Mountains of the Moon and Attics of My Life also fit the bill. Those are the ones that REALLY stick out.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 8, 2007 5:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Yep--those are two more good ones. I have such a bias toward the vocals, and as I always harp on, live, those were the first things to "go" with our boys...it is beautiful, though, what they could do when they worked on it, in the studio...they achieved that at times, live, but I just don't think it was their strength, and with how much they worked, not to be expected, really.

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Poster: caspersvapors Date: Nov 7, 2007 6:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

unbroken chain?

kinda unfair comparison though

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Poster: craven714 Date: Nov 7, 2007 5:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

Golden Road
Whats become of the baby?
Till the Morning Comes
Unbroken Chain
Pride of Cucamonga (questionable)
Esau
West L.A.
Victim-crime (questionable)
I thought there would be more off "Built", but looking at
the tracks, I can definately think of some spine-shattering
'betters'. And there are pleanty Im not listing perhaps...
the ones I cant remember right now..

Most of you probably think I suffer from mild brain-
damage, but listing Esau was most difficult...
I always thought they could give it more
Maybe I expected more...

And I know this is subjective, and non-judgemental
but that "Box of Rain" call?
All I can say is your balls must weigh as much as my head
my friend...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2007 6:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

I would hold up Box a classic "studio better than live"--the extra guitar work, Phil's voice, and such. But, I suppose my bias is that I don't know the live versions well enough; the few I have heard don't do anything special to it.

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Nov 7, 2007 7:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

WT ... let me add the caveat that i have heard some very lively versions of Box of Rain, circa mid-'80s, but it was never a song that grabbed me live, even the couple/few times i was actually at the show; of course, having said all that, never have i heard a live version, or studio version, that tops the version on Hunter's Jack 'o Roses ... my two pence anyway

edit: don't confuse audience reaction with the actual performance

This post was modified by Arbuthnot on 2007-11-08 03:38:05

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Nov 7, 2007 8:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: studio better than live?

completely agree about Box of Rain. Something about the way those guitars open that album is magic. Phil voice never sounded better either. I like the Hunter version but it will always be AB first for me.

This post was modified by elbow1126 on 2007-11-08 04:35:20

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